V1 Clutch and brake bleed question

[ToothMagician]

Bled the brakes with the 2 person method. Went great, hard pedal. Went to drive it and I couldn't get it into gear. Bled the F23 LSD zerk and I have 1st , 3rd, 4th, 5th and R. 2nd is available but grinds hard. Pedal feels hard but catch point is at the end of the pedal travel. Since they're from the same reservoir do I bleed the trans like it's part of the brake system going from rear right, rear left, trans, then fronts but pumping the clutch instead? I've tried the vacuum method but had mediocre results, vacuum was just pulling bubbles from the reservoir with the fluid. Any tips? And yes, I have checked for leaky fittings..found 2 and they are no longer leaking

Been pumping the brake and clutch and it's helping but won't work for 2nd. Both pedals lose pressure, but can be pumped up. Pressing the brake all the way makes the RPMs go up a few hundred revs from 950 to 1150 ish

 

[Traé]

Bled the brakes with the 2 person method. Went great, hard pedal. Went to drive it and I couldn't get it into gear. Bled the F23 LSD zerk and I have 1st , 3rd, 4th, 5th and R. 2nd is available but grinds hard. Pedal feels hard but catch point is at the end of the pedal travel. Since they're from the same reservoir do I bleed the trans like it's part of the brake system going from rear right, rear left, trans, then fronts but pumping the clutch instead? I've tried the vacuum method but had mediocre results, vacuum was just pulling bubbles from the reservoir with the fluid. Any tips? And yes, I have checked for leaky fittings..found 2 and they are no longer leaking

Been pumping the brake and clutch and it's helping but won't work for 2nd. Both pedals lose pressure, but can be pumped up. Pressing the brake all the way makes the RPMs go up a few hundred revs from 950 to 1150 ish

I first bled the clutch similar to the brakes, pumping while the bleeder screw was open to fill the line with fluid.

I then closed the bleeder, pumped the clutch a few time and held it to the floor with a shop broom handle (didn’t have help) and then opened the bleeder. This got even more air out. I repeated that process a few times and haven’t had any issues.

 

[Ross]

Bled the brakes with the 2 person method. Went great, hard pedal. Went to drive it and I couldn't get it into gear.

Okay, 2 unrelated events. The brakes aren't related to getting it in gear.

Bled the F23 LSD zerk

You have a zerk fitting on your limited slip differential inside your F23 transmission that needs bleeding?
WTF? Do you mean you bled the clutch?

and I have 1st , 3rd, 4th, 5th and R. 2nd is available but grinds hard. Pedal feels hard but catch point is at the end of the pedal travel. Since they're from the same reservoir do I bleed the trans like it's part of the brake system going from rear right, rear left, trans, then fronts but pumping the clutch instead?

You're loosing me... You don't bleed a transmission. You fill it with transmission oil. You mention they share the same reservoir, so I am guessing you mean bleed the clutch, as it shares the brake fluid reservoir. The clutch doesn't have 4 slave cylinders like the brake system, just a master at the clutch pedal, and a slave in the clutch area.

I've tried the vacuum method but had mediocre results, vacuum was just pulling bubbles from the reservoir with the fluid. Any tips? And yes, I have checked for leaky fittings..found 2 and they are no longer leaking

Been pumping the brake and clutch and it's helping but won't work for 2nd. Both pedals lose pressure, but can be pumped up. Pressing the brake all the way makes the RPMs go up a few hundred revs from 950 to 1150 ish

Pressing the brakes should have no affect on the engine rpm. Is your foot rubbing against the throttle pedal when you get on the brakes?

Aside from confusing me, I will agree that bleeding the brakes and clutch can be challenging. It usually takes me 3 tries to get all the air out and the leaks stopped. I use my 120VAC electric AC vacuum to draw constantly on the clutch bleeder, with a catch can, as that has worked well for me.

 

[ToothMagician]

Yeah sorry for being confusing the F23 zerk I'm referring to is just the one for the clutch line that's on the transmission housing. The reason I mention the brakes and clutch together is because they're on the same reservoir. Thought it could be related. Not sure about the RPMs but I'll worry about that later.

For now I'll bleed the clutch line from the trans fitting, bleed the brakes again, and report back tomorrow

 

[ah.b.normal]

Keep the brake/clutch reservoir full! It has a "dam" at the rear of the res for the clutch "compartment" so that area can be "empty!" while the brake areas are still holding adequate brake fluid forward of that **** dam!(a leaking clutch system will likely not empty the brake system) Strangely the Delta platform cars from Saturn and SAAB used a separate clutch master reservoir as did the the Sky/Solstice cousins. I am strongly considering just blocking off the original(like on an auto trans car) and using a separate clutch res.(S-10)
IMO It was a packaging consideration that just lead to user confusion.

 

[Indy Lonnie]

I had issues too. I found the angle of the master cylinder would not allow the fluid to pass to the clutch area. I had to jack up the rear of the Goblin a foot or so to get the fluid to flow to the clutch area.

 

[ToothMagician]

Bled the clutch line from the rear zerk last night, this morning it's worse. Won't go into any gear. Fluid was topped off the whole time. Fittings aren't leaking but I couldn't pull a vacuum on the line, like air was getting in from somewhere. Could be that the line wasn't sealed on the zerk but I ziptied it and it wasnt leaking fluid. I did the 2 person method after that and got a few bubbles but also got milky bubbles like someone had shaken the fluid aggressively. It ran mostly clean after a few rounds so I called it good. This morning I pumped the pedal a few times and got enough pressure to get into gear but the catch point is on the floor... the more I pump the pedal the harder it's gets, and the more fluid it drinks from the reservoir, but it still feels like there's air in the line. Is there a way to vacuum pump the line from the reservoir?

 

[Rttoys]

When doing any type of vacuum or pressure bleeding, be sure the pedal is completely retracted. Even use a bungee to hold it back if need be. If it’s not, the piston inside the master won’t allow fluid to pass through.

 

[Desert Sasqwatch]

I hate to ask, but is the extra fluid leaking out of the TOB or the pipe connection inside the bell housing? This could be another location that is allowing air into the fluid and causing the soft pedal until it is pumped up.

 

[ToothMagician]

I hate to ask, but is the extra fluid leaking out of the TOB or the pipe connection inside the bell housing? This could be another location that is allowing air into the fluid and causing the soft pedal until it is pumped up.

The L shaped fitting that goes into the transmission moves some if you wiggle it. I assume that's how it should be. It didn't look like there was residual fluid around it. The previous owner replaced the TOB and said the car ran fine. But who really knows. Maybe it was installed incorrectly. What am I looking for when I access it again tonight?

I've been putting 10mmHg vacuum on the reservoir, which pulls bubbles but the fluid in the reservoir also gets higher. After pumping the pedal the reservoir goes down but comes back up when I let the pedal go. This usually causes more bubbles come out and the fluid level goes back down to slightly lower than where it started originally. Then I add fluid and do it again....did this like 10x. Pedal feels harder but only after you pump it up a few times.

I should mention the vacuum doesn't hold 100% on the reservoir. It slowly goes down making me think the bubbles are expanding or there's an air leak going into the system. How do I check for this? I've tried pushing the connections and putting my fingers around them to stop the vacuum from dropping, trying to isolate it with no success.

Maybe the zerk isn't the correct size or isn't all the way tight? I thought some of the brake connections were good but they needed to be Hurcules tight. I'm using an 11/32 which feels loose but an 8mm is too small

Edit: looking at youtube, the L fitting on the trans shouldn't be wiggly like it is.. any suggestions? It's outside my scope of competency

 

[Ross]

This is the clutch distribution block on top of the F35 transmission, with the 'zerk' bleed nipple on it.

If you pull the clip at the arrow, and lift it up, you see this circled end of this clutch pipe is on the outside of the transmission. Check that it only has one o-ring on it, that it is in good condition, and that there isn't a second o-ring inside the distribution block. Also, that clip has to be put on correctly.

 

[ToothMagician]

This is the clutch distribution block on top of the F35 transmission, with the 'zerk' bleed nipple on it.
View attachment 51357
If you pull the clip at the arrow, and lift it up, you see this circled end of this clutch pipe is on the outside of the transmission. Check that it only has one o-ring on it, that it is in good condition, and that there isn't a second o-ring inside the distribution block. Also, that clip has to be put on correctly.

Is this the same as the F23. Looks similar enough to give it a shot

 

[ah.b.normal]

Ross, he is working with an F23, which uses a different T/O connection design.

Make sure the T/O bearing is not leaking. When that happens usually you get a nice puddle of hydraulic fluid on the floor but sometimes a bellhousing area holds the fluid(usually because the leak has collected enough clutch dust to sort of "seal" the separation). The F23 doesn't have the nice viewing window the F35 has, darn it. Either snake a bore scope into the area or loosen the bellhousing bolts just a turn or so, wiggle the trans and any liquid should drip or run out(all over your nice clean floor).

 

[ah.b.normal]

Ross has a very good idea, it just doesn't apply to F23. The T/O bearing body designs are very different. Look up pix of each on a site like Rock Auto.

 

[ToothMagician]

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This is how loose the elbow is... gotta be what the problem is... Not sure if the fluid is from when I bled it or not, but probably not.

No big puddles of fluid under the car, so that's a relief. There is a plastic cover, that can be removed to view into the bell housing...but idk what I'm looking for in there? A lake of fluid in the bellhousing?

Is there a way to confirm that this is the air leak?

 

[ToothMagician]

Update: took off the clutch elbow and the fitting seems to be working properly. I troubleshot the zerk fitting and when I try and apply a vacuum with the zerk fitting closed it won't hold vacuum. So I'm thinking leaky zerk? The black seal deep inside the elbow looks misaligned in the 3rd pic?

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[Ross]

Is that a black seal deep inside, or is it a O ring off of the part that goes in there?

 

[ToothMagician]

Lemme go look, gimme 15

 

[Sparvy]

Update: took off the clutch elbow and the fitting seems to be working properly. I troubleshot the zerk fitting and when I try and apply a vacuum with the zerk fitting closed it won't hold vacuum. So I'm thinking leaky zerk? The black seal deep inside the elbow looks misaligned in the 3rd pic?

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The black rubber seal is either broken into 2 pieces or there are 2 there as it looks like one is jammed up in the elbow. Also if the one on the nipple isn't broken in 2 pieces then it is jammed on too far and the seal looks scrunched down...at least that's what it looks like in the pics.

 

[ToothMagician]

So I took out the seal and it seems perfectly fine. Only one, so I put it on the nipple and replaced the elbow. No change.