V1 Coolant leak between engine and trans!?!?

[ah.b.normal]

Head isn't the problem. I plugged all the coolant passages on the side that touches the block and filled it up, no leaking. I'll check oil cooler and water pump next. Water level in the block where I filled it up still hasn't dropped.

I did have a question about gaskets. All the ones I have tried are multi layered and I noticed the middle layer is open. For example, the semi circular openings around the cylinders have a direct passage to all the oil passages with this middle layer.

A MLS head gasket when torqued down would seal the layers together, separating all passages. Unless the head or block were badly warped? Filling the block with water has, I believe, proved it is not the water pump as it is on the block and it's shaft seals are below the engine's deck height. But I still don't know about the oil cooler? I think it inlets and outlets are also below the deck height and water don't flow uphill. A hardened and milled Steel mechanic's straight edge laid across the face of the block and head would tell the tale.

 

[ah.b.normal]

Head isn't the problem. I plugged all the coolant passages on the side that touches the block and filled it up, no leaking. I'll check oil cooler and water pump next. Water level in the block where I filled it up still hasn't dropped.

I did have a question about gaskets. All the ones I have tried are multi layered and I noticed the middle layer is open. For example, the semi circular openings around the cylinders have a direct passage to all the oil passages with this middle layer.

I was not able to see clearly in the head gasket pics. The head gasket should never overhang into the cylinder bore! I can't tell for sure from your pics. If the cylinder cut out edge of the gasket over hangs into the bore you have the wrong head gasket!

 

[ah.b.normal]

Head isn't the problem. I plugged all the coolant passages on the side that touches the block and filled it up, no leaking. I'll check oil cooler and water pump next. Water level in the block where I filled it up still hasn't dropped.

I did have a question about gaskets. All the ones I have tried are multi layered and I noticed the middle layer is open. For example, the semi circular openings around the cylinders have a direct passage to all the oil passages with this middle layer.

Going back through your pix it would appear that the hoses to the oil cooler, coming off the thermostat housing appear to be above the deck height leaving the oil cooler as our only possible oil/water mix point that filling the block has not eliminated. What about your head gasket?, mis packed?, mis marked?, mis applied? As mentioned, the gasket cannot overhang into the cylinder, if it does this would be a red flag that maybe the gasket is wrong? There are many variants of the Eco Tec, but the block externally is roughly the same, I am fairly certain you cannot install the head gasket flipped over, many holes wouldn't line up. Please check that theory for me!, I could be wrong!

 

[ah.b.normal]

I was re-reading this story from the start and you reported the engine initially leaked oil, you installed a new head gasket and now coolant in oil. HMM? Another clue of possible improper head gasket. (I looked back at your gasket pix and there are two bolts on the front of the head by the chain area that I believe would stop anyone from installing the gasket upside down.) But those two gaskets you show are not exactly the same leading me to wonder if you somehow got the wrong head gasket.(Maybe both times?) Companies make mistakes in packaging and such. Note the brands on both and look at those same brands and compare to others! Also, check your bore diameter? Is this really a 2.0 block?, in used cars, almost anything is possible.

 

[PHENDERSON]

I checked the flatness of both head and block, they're straight.

Is there any chance you shouldn't fill the engine with coolant from the hose connection on the head? Just wonder if this side is usually hot and under pressure if that keeps it sealed somehow. It only leaks when I do this. I wish I had an extra to test with.

 

[ah.b.normal]

I checked the flatness of both head and block, they're straight.

Is there any chance you shouldn't fill the engine with coolant from the hose connection on the head? Just wonder if this side is usually hot and under pressure if that keeps it sealed somehow. It only leaks when I do this. I wish I had an extra to test with.

Sorry, no, temp has nothing to do with it, same hot or cold. *****What about my head gasket questions? Wrong gasket twice would be rare but I have seen worse! Surface finish and flatness are important. ****And what about the oil cooler(lines)? I'm betting they are getting no water in this current torn down situation, maybe the thermostat is keeping water out of the cooler? Disconnect the higher oil cooler hose from the thermostat housing and fill it while holding the hose up so it fills all the way up and lets the air out. Look for our dreaded leak! It would be nice if this was "A Combo Burrito of Problems", Wrong head gasket first time was the source of an oil leak and the source of the water leak was a damaged oil cooler all along. A guy can dream can't he?

 

[Robinjo]

That’s normal for a head gasket. They loosely hang together by the brass rivets. Do you mind taking a photo of the whole thing and the part marks? I want to see if it’s one of mine from my previous job.

 

[PHENDERSON]

This has to be something stupid. The head and block appear to be fine. Engine only leaks when filling into the head hose connection and it's fast. You can hear the water make its way down to the oil pan.

I'm going to check the oil cooler today. I'm also going to take the timing cover off, lay the head back on the block and pour water in to see if it's something there.

 

[escapepilot]

That water pump idea really makes sense. If there was an issue there or in the area where the timing chain passes into the head, coolant would have a straight shot to the oil pan. How it's getting from the pan to the bell housing is another question.

 

[Desert Sasqwatch]

 

[PHENDERSON]

Just for giggles I put the head back on with no gasket. No leaking! None at all. Clearly it's an issue with the gasket. I have tried 4 now purchased from ZZP, Rock Auto, GM Authority, and somewhere else. All were supposed to be LSJ. The holes seem to line up. There is very small variations between the last 3 versions as shown in the pic.

But still, no gasket no leak. What does this mean? Do I run without one?

 

[Dale E]

Did you use any sealant on the head bolts into block? That is a strange one - eh?? All of those last gasket pictures match -- except for the gold one which has extra holes (3) around the cam gears but they have sealant rings around them.

The middle black one has two extra things at the cam chain head side in the middle.

Which one did you have on the car when it leaked??

Otherwise all those gaskets look like they have the same passageways. Gold and middle black have the semi-circle areas at the cylinder liners. The last black one deletes those but still has the steam holes which in effect work the same by allowing a pathway head to block. Different designs with same function.

 

[PHENDERSON]

Never mind false alarm. There is water in the cylinders and when I gave the car a good shaking the engine made some gurgling noise and peed out the oil pan a little.

Time for some target practice.

 

[ah.b.normal]

I checked the flatness of both head and block, they're straight.

Is there any chance you shouldn't fill the engine with coolant from the hose connection on the head? Just wonder if this side is usually hot and under pressure if that keeps it sealed somehow. It only leaks when I do this. I wish I had an extra to test with.

That water pump idea really makes sense. If there was an issue there or in the area where the timing chain passes into the head, coolant would have a straight shot to the oil pan. How it's getting from the pan to the bell housing is another question.

Betting against the water pump because most water pumps have a weep hole in the casting between the two seals that weeps to outside, unless this one weeps into the timing chain area? I have only pictures for my research, no actual parts.(until I get to Billings where I can spend some time in the junk yard on Wednesday.) My bet is still on the oil cooler, compromised internally. Generally when running the oil pressure would put oil in the coolant but as soon as you shut the engine down the coolant would run into the oil. When Phenderson filled his block with water it should have filled the water passages in the water pump to a level above the pump's shaft seals. But I believe the water level with the head off was still below the water pipes from the thermostat distribution housing to the oil cooler. When he put the head on and filled the head THEN it filled high enough to fill the oil cooler. ****PS: Not unusual to set the head machined surface on the block machined surface and have them virtually seal together. Engine builders go to great lengths to make both surfaces flat and smooth. Head gaskets are there to deal with differing expansion rates of the individual components.

 

[ah.b.normal]

Never mind false alarm. There is water in the cylinders and when I gave the car a good shaking the engine made some gurgling noise and peed out the oil pan a little.

Time for some target practice.

Any news about the oil cooler? IF it is leaking internally that is your last hope.

 

[Goblinfanclub1234]

are you going to remove the water pump to inspect it??

 

[ah.b.normal]

are you going to remove the water pump to inspect it??

His last post ended with 'Time for some target practice." I fear his motor has gone the way of the Dodo. I can't say as I would blame him, he has been working on this leaky mess for about a year. I believe I'd fall back and punt too! Get another motor, at least it would present a different set of problems! We're still with you Buddy, either way!

 

[PHENDERSON]

I'm stubborn. I just dismantled the head and am going to do some leak tests. I still need to check the water pump but it isn't leaking externally or into the timing chain area. I am also checking the web for a new motor at the same time.

 

[Goblinfanclub1234]

did you ever remove the transmission and then fill coolant to see if you can locate the leak more precisely? what if it was the heater loop hose leaking

 

[PHENDERSON]

Slowly working my way from the top down. I'll get there at some point.