V1 Clutch and brake bleed question

[Gtstorey]

Joe, you should add that your transmission is a F40 and has different dimensions to contend with than the F35 or F23. The dual mass clutch is thicker in height than the single mass clutches and the pressure plate engagement location is the variable you are trying to accommodate.

Plus getting the throw-out bearing to not touch when not engaged.

 

[ToothMagician]

I'm back! We moved from our small town so I had to shelve the goblin for a while. Got back to it yesterday. I'm almost positive the TOB blew its seal from too big an air gap. Lost clutch pressure and it pissed fluid out the bell housing. Trans is out and I'm having a lot of "while I'm in there" syndrome so I'll probably do the clutch, flywheel, and rear main. Any other suggestions while the trans is out? I'm on top of the TOB air gap and how to measure it, so I'm good there.

Any suggestions on clutches. It's already pushing more power than stock...probably not much, but I want something durable and comfortable to drive on the street

 

[Robinjo]

I just have the ZZP upgraded LSJ clutch and it hold very well and is very street friendly. I’m still on a blower though, so a turbo LSJ might be too much for it. Consider a lightweight flywheel while you are in there.

 

[ToothMagician]

Here's the blown seal from the TOB.

I just have the ZZP upgraded LSJ clutch and it hold very well and is very street friendly. I’m still on a blower though, so a turbo LSJ might be too much for it. Consider a lightweight flywheel while you are in there.

Any chance you have that ZZP spacer laying around still? Not sure I need it yet, but I should in the next 2 weeks or so..

 

[Robinjo]

Still got it. PM me you address and I can get it out to you

 

[ah.b.normal]

Here's the blown seal from the TOB.



Any chance you have that ZZP spacer laying around still? Not sure I need it yet, but I should in the next 2 weeks or so..

Save the T/O bearing "Feed Pipe" for the rubber seal on the coupler! The seal is not available without the pipe and they are bad about getting away!

 

[ToothMagician]

Save the T/O bearing "Feed Pipe" for the rubber seal on the coupler! The seal is not available without the pipe and they are bad about getting away!

Saving me again, just ran to the garage only to find it laying on the floor...

 

[ah.b.normal]

Saving me again, just ran to the garage only to find it laying on the floor...

Pleased to be of service, m'lord.

 

[ToothMagician]

Both sides of the clutch plate. My theory is: as the clutch plate wore down it exceeded the tolerances of the TOB without the spacer and blew the seal. Either way, new clutch and flywheel. Was looking at southbend but saw they have a chance to grenade themselves. I'm looking at clutchmasters stage III now. Anyone have experience with clutchmasters?

 

[Gtstorey]

I think the air gap decreases as the clutch wears?

 

[ToothMagician]

I think the air gap decreases as the clutch wears?

I have no clue. Would you explain it to me. As I understand it, the space between the TOB and the pressure plate is the "air gap" I figured that the clutch got thinner the TOB would need to extend that much more to engage... when you compress the TOB there's a cylinder on the inside that doesn't move. Does its relation to the pressure plate have something to do with what causes the seal to blow?

On a side note. The cars transmission hasnt worked correctly since ive owned it. The previous owner replaced the TOB. He did know about the air gap and the spacer zzp makes but, I'm assuming everything else. Like, That he measured for the air gap or that the car worked in that configuration at all.

 

[Gtstorey]

I've never particularly looked at a clutch to figure out the mechanics, but it more complicated than "a cylinder on the inside that doesn't move. " The internet seems to agree (mostly discussions on forums) that as a clutch wears, the fingers of the pressure plate move out or closer to the bearing.

Sometimes seals just fail could be the answer in this case. If it was installed properly, maybe the seal wasn't seated correctly or had a rough spot that finally tore the seal.

 

[Desert Sasqwatch]

Quick sketch of a clutch setup with exaggerated thickness. As the clutch plate facing, flywheel and pressure plate wear, the TOB has to extend further to push on the pressure plate fingers to disengage the clutch.

 

[Gtstorey]

Quick sketch of a clutch setup with exaggerated thickness. As the clutch plate facing, flywheel and pressure plate wear, the TOB has to extend further to push on the pressure plate fingers to disengage the clutch.
View attachment 53185

Maybe it's just an internet myth, but the consensus is different. I think the way it works is as you push the fingers in, the plate moves away from the flywheel to release the clutch. As the clutch wears, the plate moves closer to the flywheel (when not released), so the fingers stick out further.

 

[Desert Sasqwatch]

Hmmm, yep @Gtstorey you are correct. I was thinking only about the actual wear face on the pressure plate and forgot it is bolted at a fixed distance to the flywheel. The fingers will change angle to compensate for the wear I diagramed, but the tips of the fingers do wear also and that is not compensated by design. This is why the airgap AND the clutch disengagement distances are critical to the position of the TOB relative to the clutch assy. I would think it better to be closer (within the tolerances) than further away for the TOB positioning.

 

[ToothMagician]

Quick sketch of a clutch setup with exaggerated thickness. As the clutch plate facing, flywheel and pressure plate wear, the TOB has to extend further to push on the pressure plate fingers to disengage the clutch.
View attachment 53185

The drawing helps, so I was wrong about the air gap but the principle still makes sense.

I've never particularly looked at a clutch to figure out the mechanics, but it more complicated than "a cylinder on the inside that doesn't move. " The internet seems to agree (mostly discussions on forums) that as a clutch wears, the fingers of the pressure plate move out or closer to the bearing.

Sometimes seals just fail could be the answer in this case. If it was installed properly, maybe the seal wasn't seated correctly or had a rough spot that finally tore the seal.

I have to be honest I hadn't thought of that... man.. hahaha. I tend to overlook the simple things

Thank you guys for all the help! I think I understand how it works and what's happening. I'll keep yall updated as to how the install goes

 

[ToothMagician]

HELP! Transmission won't mate up due to dowel pins. What am I missing? do I have 2 sets of pins on here?

 

[comegetjoe]

That pin in picture #2 looks smashed and peened over.

 

[ToothMagician]

That pin in picture #2 looks smashed and peened over.

Yeah, I corrected it with a Drexel. Still won't go on either side. Transmission and engine casing appear to be the same size

 

[ToothMagician]

Does one seat inside the other? Should I expand the one on the engine side?